Cardinal O'Brien on War, Faith, and the Road to Rome

Cardinal Edwin O’Brien on ministering to soldiers in Vietnam, leading the Military Archdiocese, and serving the Church in turbulent times.

Cardinal Edwin O’Brien has spent decades serving both the Catholic Church and the United States military — from the battlefields of Vietnam to the Vatican.

In this conversation, we discuss:

• His experience as a military chaplain during the Vietnam War

• What he learned from American soldiers about sacrifice and service

• The role of priests ministering to troops during times of war

• How he helped the Church respond to the 2002 clergy sex abuse crisis and reformed seminary formation

• The situation of Christians in the Holy Land and the work of the Knights of the Holy Sepulchre

More than a personal biography, this is a reflection on faith forged amid conflict — and on how suffering, discipline, and service can deepen Christian witness in a divided world.

Transcript

Intro: Cardinal Edwin O’Brien has spent a lifetime serving both the Catholic Church and the United States military. As a young priest during the Vietnam War, he jumped out of helicopters to minister to American troops in the field. In 1997, he became Archbishop for the Military Services, overseeing Catholic ministry to U.S. service members around the world during a period that included the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. He later served in the Holy Land, working closely with Christian communities living amid one of the most volatile and contested regions in the world. He also took part in the conclave that elected Pope Francis. Now 86 years old, Cardinal O’Brien lives in retirement, dividing his time between Rome and Baltimore, where he once served as archbishop of the first diocese established in the United States. In this conversation with Catholic News Service, we talk about his years ministering to American soldiers, the lessons of discipline and virtue forged in war, his role helping reform seminaries after the 2002 clerical sex abuse crisis, and his hopes for the future of the Church under Pope Leo XIV. Recorded just days before the United States entered a new war with Iran, the cardinal reflects on something he has witnessed throughout his life on the front lines of conflict: that suffering, endured with faith, can draw Christians closer to Christ and become a powerful witness beyond the Church’s walls.

Robert Duncan: Your Eminence, thank you for sitting down with Catholic News Service. I want to start at the moment of your ordination, 1965, if I’ve got that right.

Cardinal O’Brien: That’s right, yeah.

Robert Duncan: The first years of your priesthood, there were a lot of changes in the United States. There was not only the sexual revolution, massive changes in American culture, but then in the early 70s, Roe vs. Wade. As a young priest, looking at the changes in the United States that were underway, how did you see your vocation and your mission as a priest at that time?

Cardinal O’Brien: Well, I’ve been in seminary work for many years, and I always held that the first five years after ordination are as important as the five years preparing for ordination. And they were very significant years. When I was ordained, I was supposed to go to Puerto Rico to learn Spanish, because we had all kinds of numbers of Puerto Ricans coming to New York, and Cardinal Spellman, for our class, sent half the group, 15 of us. But last minute, they got word from the academy, West Point, that they were doubling the size of the academy, and they wanted a third priest there. So long story short, I went to West Point as a civilian chaplain for almost five years. I was marrying cadets in June week, and two years later I was burying some of them, because they went right over to Vietnam. It was a very sad, sad time. And I figured after a while, gee, these young people are sacrificing. Why don’t I put on a uniform? And I asked Cardinal Spellman, and he didn’t get anywhere, but Cardinal Cooke let me join the military at the end of 69. And I spent three active years. And they were wonderful years. I enjoyed my time at West Point. It was like a seminary. It was so disciplined, and such a place full of goals and virtue and sacrifice. And I was ready then to put on a uniform. I spent a year as a chaplain, a parachute in Fort Bragg in Carolina, a year in Vietnam, and I wound up in Fort Gordon, Georgia. And I was willing to stay on. I said, but I have to study something. I need the books. And the Army said, fine, we’ll send you to study. You’ll get your master’s degree. What would you like to study? I said, theology. They said, can’t study theology. It’s the church and state. We can’t spend money on theology. So at the same time, New York, the Archdiocese, my home, said, we need someone to study theology in Rome. Oh, that was an answer to prayer. And so I spent three years here and got a degree in theology. They were good years. I was with two fine priests for my first five years. In the military, I certainly got to know a lot of chaplains, and it was a great experience. And then when I got out of the military, my life started over again in academia. So it was a good flavor for the priesthood, my first eight years as a priest.

Robert Duncan: I’d love to talk about some of those moments in greater detail. I mean, Vietnam really stands out. You say that you were marrying and then having, unfortunately, to bury men very quickly thereafter, that you also jumped from helicopters. Can you take me back a little bit to maybe some of those memories specifically? What stands out? Were there any…

Cardinal O’Brien: Well, I’ve had a lot of honors and so forth and a lot of privileges. But one of my main honor is to be called a vet, an Army veteran, United States military, because I learned so much from the people I served. Their life was full of self-sacrifice. They entered the service. That’s a virtue. Greater love than this no one has than to give up your life for your friends. Peace I leave with you. And I admire the military very much. I do today. I remember at one stage, it was early in the 70s, I was invited up to Boston for the 4th of July concert. And I had my uniform on. As I walked through the crowded field, I was booed. In those days, it was not an honor to be in the military. Changed today, thank goodness. The military has high regard, I think, in America. But those days were very controversial. And the military just did what they were asked to do and I think did it fairly well. And I learned a lot in service then.

“One of my main honors is to be called a vet, an Army veteran, United States military, because I learned so much from the people I served.”

Robert Duncan: You were a military chaplain.

Cardinal O’Brien: I put on a uniform in 1970, that’s right, as an active duty chaplain for three years.

Robert Duncan: And you served alongside people of other faiths, Protestants?

Cardinal O’Brien: Oh, yes. Every day in Vietnam, we’d board a helicopter with a Protestant chaplain and fly out to a distant fire base where young people, guys at the time, were waiting for the hot food once a week for their mail. And I’d offer mass, hear confessions, and stay the day. It was a great relief for them and for me as well, great pastoral work. And I saw such generosity in these young people. The mail would have a box of cookies or something. First thing they would do, they’d open the box and pass it around. A sense of these 19 and 20-year-olds, a sense of great service and generosity. And I think that’s true today, too. I have great regard. I guess 18 years of my 60 have been spent dealing with the military in some way or other. And that’s been a great benefit to me, a great blessing for me.

“Every day in Vietnam, we’d board a helicopter with a Protestant chaplain and fly out to a distant fire base… I’d offer mass, hear confessions, and stay the day.”

I guess 18 years of my 60 have been spent dealing with the military in some way or other. And that’s been a great benefit to me, a great blessing for me.

Robert Duncan: Was there any experience specifically in Vietnam, someone you met, something that happened that you think had a lifelong impact? You’ve already said that the entire experience had a lifelong impact.

Cardinal O’Brien: Yeah, I have no war stories. It was a daily routine. And I saw a lot of self-sacrifice on the part of troops on the edge of the war. We were trying to get out of Vietnam at the time. And so we were strictly defensive. But it was a difficult time, too, because they’d get restless. And they’d wander off to find a woman in the nearby town or to get some drugs or something. Morale was very low. And so the chaplain’s role was very important. And I valued that at the time.

Robert Duncan: Did you feel prepared for that task?

Cardinal O’Brien: Oh, yes. I think our seminaries do great work. And every four or five years, my job has changed. And I’ve learned flexibility. And the people, wherever I’ve been, I’ve been supported by the people and impressed by the people. And that’s what’s kept me going, with God’s grace.

Robert Duncan: As someone who has done a lot of seminary work, who’s been in charge of the formation of men for the priesthood, what do you think it is that remains attractive about the priestly vocation today?

Cardinal O’Brien: Well, it’s God’s grace and very often through the example of other priests. I grew up in the Bronx. And everything revolved around the parish. And the priest was the leader. It was education. It was worship. It was sports. And that was a kind of leadership that got to me. And I saw it as a time to serve God and to serve my neighbor in a very effective way. And to go to the seminary, I had no hesitation. And I enjoyed the seminary. And I enjoyed the challenge once out of the seminary to meet the needs, the changing needs, in a very topsy-turvy world in the 70s.

Robert Duncan: Did your experiences in the military, in Vietnam—did you ever suffer from the consequences that many people do, such as post-traumatic stress? Did those experiences stay with you over the years?

Cardinal O’Brien: Thank goodness. I have many memories. But I came out pretty healthy, I think, still. But I was close to the Lord. I said my prayers. I kept association with other chaplains, other priests. And that kept me going. And I found it a challenge to keep morale among the troops during those years. But it worked. And I came out much better experienced as a priest and ready for whatever the Church was offering. And it offered studies and then working with the Archbishop of New York for a few years.

Robert Duncan: I wonder if you have any advice as a pastor for those who are suffering post-traumatic stress from their military service.

Cardinal O’Brien: Well, it depends on the background. You’re working with men and women from all kinds of experiences in their lives. Some are seeking refuge in the military. And it works. Others are finding it very difficult to serve. It depends on their assignment. It depends on their support system. And I think everyone needs a support system once they leave the familiar surroundings of home and neighborhood. And if they do find that support system among friends and fellow workers, I think they can get by pretty well if they stay true to principle, their religious life, their prayer life, if they’re religious people, which certainly helps to keep balance and to keep perspective. The military has structures which are supposed to help. And I think they do very often. And it’s very, very important for someone who is finding stress to seek help while they are in uniform. To let it go and to wrap yourself in some kind of neurosis is not good for anybody. And so I would stress anyone in uniform to take advantage of the help that the command offers and that medical people offer and the chaplains offer. And many do. And many, because of that, stay pretty healthy.

“I think (soldiers) can get by pretty well if they stay true to principle, their religious life, their prayer life, if they’re religious people, which certainly helps to keep balance and to keep perspective.”

Robert Duncan: So after your time in Vietnam, if I’m not jumping ahead too much, you then came to study in Rome. So you’ve spent a lot of your life in Rome, also abroad, overseas. What do you remember about Rome in your first visit studying theology?

Cardinal O’Brien: Well, I remember how emotional it was. I didn’t expect to come. But I recall the Casa Santa Maria, the house of studies for priests, kneeling in the chapel for the first time. And very, very tears came to my eyes. And I was very grateful for what had gone on in my life and for the new opportunity I was given. I lived in a house of studies for all American priests who were wonderful examples. And I spent three years there. And it was a kind of good education. Priests from all over the country and studies from universal teachers at the Angelicum, where I went. And I enjoyed the studies. I thought I’d be teaching afterwards. But Cardinal Cooke decided to open an office for evangelization. He didn’t call it at that time, but pastoral outreach. And for two or three years, I worked on special projects. It was a time of cults, the Moonies, for instance. And we started a group of ecumenical group to counter the cults, separated and divorced, an outreach to separated and divorced, outreach to people homosexually inclined called Courage. And so it was a good pastoral experience, those first three years out of Rome from 73 to 76 when I got my doctorate. And then I worked in the chancery in New York as vice chancellor, head of communications, secretary to Cardinal Cooke and to Cardinal O’Connor before I was put into seminary work.

Robert Duncan: So after you were director, I believe, of St. Joseph’s, you were also director of Rome’s seminary for North American men called the North American College. How did that appointment come about? And what were the different challenges of being a rector of this seminary versus a domestic…?

Cardinal O’Brien: Well, I remember on a weekend, it was Labor Day weekend. I was driving Cardinal O’Connor up to the country for a pastoral visit. And it was a Sunday of the weekend. And on the way, I said, Your Emminence, I know Dunwoodie needs a rector. And I have been rumored. I said, I really don’t think I’m fit to be a rector. I don’t have that educational background and so forth. So he said nothing. But on the way back, he said, you’ll be the rector of Dunwoodie. So I started the next day. And on Labor Day, we had a big dinner at the seminary. I was welcomed. And I did almost five years, then went to Rome for almost five years, and then back to Dunwoodie for four or five years. And it was great. I love the priesthood. And I loved forming other priests. It was a great privilege. And to this day, I keep in touch with some of them. And I remember the days very fondly. As I said, I was being formed as I was trying to form others. And I found seminary work very supportive of my priesthood and didn’t realize I’d be in that work for so long. But I benefited from it very much. And after I became a bishop, those years proved to be very profitable for me.

But I benefited from it very much. And after I became a bishop, those years proved to be very profitable for me.

Robert Duncan: How did they form you? I can imagine the ways that you would help the others.

Cardinal O’Brien: Well, discipline, a prayer life, a sense of service. I saw people around me serving. And that was very supportive and instructive to me. In ways I didn’t realize at the time, I guess. But when I found myself out of the seminary and served as an auxiliary bishop and then bishop for the Military Services, I found those years in seminary formation formed me in a way that I was self-disciplined and motivated, goal motivated. And that was a wonderful blessing for me for the rest of my life.

Robert Duncan: What mark do you think you had personally on these seminaries? I mean, every rector is different. What were your priorities as you led both the minute at Dunwoodie and then later in Rome?

Cardinal O’Brien: I think as a rector, you set an example. There are always tasks that you have to perform, sometimes to revitalize the community, to set a new policy, to find the right faculty members, to set discipline in a balanced way, and to relate to the seminarians as a father. And I found that very fulfilling. And I think I got a good response both in New York and both trips as seminary rector in Dunwoodie and here in Rome. I enjoyed Rome very much. Didn’t expect it. Didn’t know Rome very well. But it was a good exposure for me, a good experience for me.

Robert Duncan: Would you take me back to the time after your service in Rome as seminary rector to when you were appointed a bishop? Do you remember how you heard about that, how that came about, and what your reaction was?

Cardinal O’Brien: Yes. I was here in Rome, in fact, visiting. I was rector at Dunwoodie. And I was bringing some people up to Orvieto because the North American College needed some help financially. And on the way back, we got a phone call. And they said, please call Cardinal O’Connor at the next stop. We didn’t have cell phones at the time. And I called Cardinal O’Connor. And he said, what is an auxiliary bishop of mine doing in Rome when he should be at the seminary? And of course, he was giving me a hard time. But that’s how I learned I’d be an auxiliary bishop. He said, do you accept? I said, yes. He said, here’s the number. Call the nuncio and tell him you accept. That was in ‘96, I guess. And I was auxiliary bishop for the cardinal for one year. And then the military archdiocese opened up. The archbishop was retiring. And unexpectedly, I was appointed an archbishop after a year as a bishop. And I moved to Washington and spent, I guess, 10 years as military archbishop.

Robert Duncan: I read that you would divide your time as military archbishop. Well, first of all, can you explain to people who may not know how the military archdiocese works?

Cardinal O’Brien: The archbishop of the military is chartered by the pope to take care of all the men and women who are Catholic in uniform in the United States, plus diplomats, plus VA hospitals. We had, I guess, 150 priests far below our quota. And I traveled wherever our military people were, 40 countries, mostly in Europe and North America. And it was a great sense to support our priest chaplains and to support the people they were serving. And it involved a lot of travel, as I say, which I enjoyed. And I had a lot of good support.

Robert Duncan: What were some of the countries that you would have to frequent most in this time?

Cardinal O’Brien: Oh, where did I go? I certainly, the US, half the time was US bases all around the country. Western Europe, Japan. And I was always on the road and had a good budget and was able to fly when necessary and be in the midst of the people, which is, I think, the job of a priest and certainly the job of a bishop.

Robert Duncan: You were still serving as archbishop of military services when the United States went to war in Iraq. How did you see your role as pastor to the Catholic men and women in uniform during that time?

Cardinal O’Brien: Well, I think the war was a difficult one. It was great divisions. And I just reminded the priests, you’re not here to take a side in the war. Certainly, you’re an American and want to see the Americans safe and bring about peace, and that’s why they’re there. But keep your eye on the mark, and you’re a priest first, and then you put on your uniform as a chaplain. And one of my roles was to keep morale among priests and to help them serve their people who were under great pressures in those days.

“I just reminded the priests, you’re not here to take a side in the war. … You’re a priest first, and then you put on your uniform as a chaplain.”

Robert Duncan: And I can imagine that the reasons that the morale is low is because people that they know and love are dying.

Cardinal O’Brien: Yeah, and there was criticism. I mean, as I mentioned, to be booed because you were in uniform of the United States is not a pleasant thing. And this country was very divided, and they blamed the military for a war, which is not the case. And so I had a hard time lifting morale of our people by serving the good, healthy work our chaplains were doing.

Robert Duncan: What strategies did you have for lifting morale when, I mean, that was a time, as you described, that was very, the country was very divided.

Cardinal O’Brien: To be present. I think I was welcomed wherever I went. I felt that it was important to be there and to pray and sacraments and just to do what a good priest and a good bishop should be doing, brought life into the community. And that, I think, the role of a bishop is to bring the life of Christ more present into the local parish and the local community. And I found that to be a very, very attractive way of life for me.

Robert Duncan: Are you surprised that you ended up spending so much of your life in the military?

Cardinal O’Brien: Over 60 years as a priest, I think I counted 18 in some way associated with the military. And I didn’t ask for it. The only thing I asked for in my many years was to put on uniform at the end of the 60s and to serve as a captain in the chaplaincy. Other than that, I just went where I was told to go and to do what I was ordained to do. And it’s the same in whatever role it is for a bishop, is to bring the sacraments and to bring Christ into the lives of your people that you’re given to serve. And I found I was prepared to do that and I gained a lot of strength, a lot of grace doing it.

Robert Duncan: Journalists have called you in the past Warrior Priest. Do you like that title?

Cardinal O’Brien: I never accepted it, and I think it’s distracting, but not going to change things.

Robert Duncan: After your time in the military archdiocese, you were made the Archbishop of Baltimore.

Cardinal O’Brien: That’s right.

Robert Duncan: Which is the oldest see in the United States.

Cardinal O’Brien: Yes.

Robert Duncan: And (it’s) highly symbolic. I take you to be a very patriotic American, a patriotic Catholic priest, and so that must have been quite an honor for you.

Cardinal O’Brien: Great history. Baltimore’s great history. And I got a great reception there. I thought I’d be there till God called me to heaven, hopefully. But it didn’t wind up that way. I was called one day and said, the Holy Father would like you to come to Rome and serve as the head of the Order of the Holy Sepulchre, which was a great surprise, but one that I accepted and embraced and found very, very rewarding.

Robert Duncan: Was it hard to go back to the United States after so much international travel and experience and be a local bishop?

Cardinal O’Brien: I was with American Catholic communities for the most part, and they were away from home, and therefore I was away from home, too. And we appreciated the role each of us played, both those who are serving in uniform and those who are civilians working with the military. And I found it no tension and no distraction to go where the troops were, to be with the people, to do what a priest does and what a bishop does.

Robert Duncan: You were also an American archbishop in the United States during the greatest challenge and scandal of the Catholic Church’s history in the United States, the fallout of the 2002 sexual abuse crisis. And by all reports, you were a key figure in shaping the response of the Church to that crisis. What did you learn as a part of that experience?

Cardinal O’Brien: Well, my predecessor, Cardinal William Keeler, in Baltimore in 1992, made the decision against great opposition to reveal all those who had had accusations against them and what the outcome was. And he really set the foundation in Baltimore for a pretty healthy presbyterate. And I’m very grateful to him for that, but he suffered for it. And when I came there, I guess, in the year 2000, there were a few problems, but by and large, the lawyers kept us clean in the late 90s, and we didn’t take any chances, and any accusations were followed up very clearly. And we were one of the fortunate dioceses because of the decision of Cardinal Keeler to move in with no compromise at all, and I benefited from that.

Robert Duncan: And you went on to work with seminaries in the United States.

Cardinal O’Brien: I was a seminary rector before that, yes.

Robert Duncan: I mean as the apostolic visitator to the American seminaries.

Cardinal O’Brien: Oh, yes, yes.

Robert Duncan: And that had to do with preparing men to, forming men to address...

Cardinal O’Brien: No, there was a question at the time as to what is a seminary doing about this? And Rome asked me to take part in a review of all the American seminaries, and we had maybe 30 or 35 people on our staff. They were all active bishops or religious, men and women, and we set up an agenda out for them, and they would go around to each seminary and review it and report to me, and I would report back to Rome as to what shape the seminaries were in. And by and large, we found the seminaries were doing a pretty good job. I never received a report as to what was done, but I think Rome followed up, and the local bishops were very attentive having that review to keeping an eye on the formation in their seminary.

Robert Duncan: Do you know why you were chosen for that role?

Cardinal O’Brien: I was with a couple of other bishops, and we had experiences. Obviously, I was many years in seminary work, and Rome thought it would be a good idea. I don’t generalize, but by and large, I think our seminaries were doing a fairly good job at the time. They were chastened by the scandal, and many of them had taken action. Most of them had taken action already, and I was happy to report that to Rome.

Robert Duncan: And the action would have been, at least in some cases, greater screening for men, psychological exams before entrance, a higher threshold for who can be admitted?

Cardinal O’Brien: Yeah, in 1992, Pope John Paul had a meeting, and it was on seminary formation here in Rome, and I had just gotten to Rome, and I was helping out in that meeting in kind of a messenger job. But out of that, in 1992, came a document, Pastores dabo vobis, which is my motto. I will give you shepherds. And there was great emphasis on renewing seminary formation, especially in human formation. For the first time, Rome was very strong on a proper psychological approach in screening to get into the seminary, and once in the seminary, to make sure that the balance, personality balance, communications, and performance were those of a mature seminarian. And that was a turning point, I think, that Encyclical, Pastoral Letter of the Pope, and I relied on that in reviewing the seminary, all the seminaries of the United States, and it was a watershed, I believe, in bringing further up to date the formation of priests, especially human formation.

Robert Duncan: After your time in Baltimore, as you’ve already mentioned, you were called back to Rome again, this time as, it’s a complicated title, so maybe you better say it, the Grand Master of the...

Cardinal O’Brien: I’m not sure I’ll remember it.

Robert Duncan: The Grand Master of the Knights of the Holy...

Cardinal O’Brien: …Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem.

Robert Duncan: What do they do?

Cardinal O’Brien: There are two papal orders. One is the Order of Malta, which takes care largely of medical attention throughout the world, Catholic hospitals and so forth. The other is the Order of the Holy Sepulchre, and our role, given by the Pope, is to support the Church in the Holy Land. We do that by encouraging pilgrimages on the part of our faithful. We have about 30,000 members of the Order of the Holy Sepulchre, men and women, very dedicated, very good, strong Catholics, very generous, maybe $13, $14 million a year we would raise and send it to the Patriarch of Jerusalem. Great support, especially in these days with tourism down. But I visited every year. We’d go to the charitable institutions, the orphanages and hospitals and the parishes, and once again to show universal Catholic support in a land that was under great pressure and persecution at times. So it was a job once more to travel and to be on the ground with those who were challenged to serve the Church on the ground.

“(In the Holy Land)we’d go to the charitable institutions, the orphanages and hospitals and the parishes, and once again to show universal Catholic support in a land that was under great pressure and persecution at times.”

Robert Duncan: In that role, what did you learn about the situation of Christians in the Holy Land?

Cardinal O’Brien: Well, the (Christian minority) in the Holy Land were under pressure from the Israeli government sometimes, were under pressure from Islam, and to keep the focus on the Church and the role of the universal Church in supporting the smaller, more challenged Church in the Holy Land was the job of the Order of the Holy Sepulchre. And our lay people, our membership, responded very well in their pilgrimages. They were sure to be present in the places that most needed Catholic support, and certainly the priests and the bishops of the Holy Land appreciated very much. And the Archbishop, now Cardinal Pizzaballa, would come to our meetings three or four times a year here in Rome and to express his appreciation on behalf of the Catholic community, which was so beleaguered in the Holy Land, and that is still the case.

Robert Duncan: Do you have updates regularly from your contacts there?

Cardinal O’Brien: I’ve virtually lost contact with the changes that have been taking place over the last seven or eight years. I follow the news, and it’s not always good, but I think the Church under Cardinal Pizzaballa is very strong and very well respected among all the factions there. He’s a great, great leader.

Robert Duncan: One thing that I remember very distinctly of our past history is that we interviewed you the day that Pope Benedict XVI resigned from the papacy. You were one of the first interviews we at Catholic News Service had, and there’s this... I think it’s a remarkable clip of you reflecting on the meaning of that resignation, and you become quite emotional in this clip:

Cardinal O’Brien (ARCHIVAL FOOTAGE): It will be easier for him, but in another sense it’s going to be a very traumatic transition, I think. So I’ve been kind of praying and quite taken by it, for his sake mainly, really. END.

Robert Duncan: You can see that the gravity of the moment was sinking in, even as we were speaking. Do you remember how you reacted? Why that moved you so much?

Cardinal O’Brien: Well, I loved Benedict XVI. I think he’s a saintly man, if ever there was a saint. He served the Church well on a great sacrifice. I don’t think he relished being the Pope, but he took the burden and was, as the Lord said to Peter, support the brethren, and he did. Total surprise that he resigned, but I understood it then, and I think his health was deteriorating, and it was a prudent move. And he handed it over to Pope Francis, but I missed him. I had great fondness for him, and I think his scholarship, his pastoral leadership between John Paul II and Benedict, there’s a whole body of Church teaching and Church tradition, Church life, which is going to be with us for many, many decades to come.

Robert Duncan: What have you been doing in your retirement? What have you been up to besides your travel that you’ve mentioned, going back and forth to Baltimore? Have there been any projects, books, relationships that you’ve wanted to focus on?

Cardinal O’Brien: On retirement, I’m low-key. I have a lot of visitors. When you have a place in Rome and tourists come, they know that they’d be welcome, which is good for me, I think. I keep active that way. It’s kind of armchair evangelization. I have a lot of visitors, and I can talk about the Church and the Gospel and vocation, and I’m kept fairly busy that way, but I get a lot of rest, a lot of reading, a lot of prayer. I say I kind of lead my life like an active monk, and it’s between rest and study and prayer and sociability. It’s a good retirement.

Robert Duncan: I wonder if I could ask you, you are someone who has seen a lot of pain in your life, and whether that was in Vietnam or, we talked about the horrible sex abuse scandal, or your work in the Holy Land. In all of that experience, was there ever a time that your faith was challenged, and how did you hang on, if so?

Cardinal O’Brien: I forget who said it. I think it was John Paul II. There’s nothing so wasted as wasted pain. And when you’re suffering yourself or when you’re suffering in part of others, we just realize we are carrying on in the body of Christ today what Christ left undone.

The Church is continuing as the body of Christ, the suffering of Jesus in the world. And I think when I was very young, we’d say, offer it up. And that’s a Catholic phrase, but join whatever the suffering, in order to pay in your suffering, to the sufferings of Christ for the salvation of the world. And there will always be sufferings, and sometimes I just wonder, for instance, in the Ukraine today and some places, how it can be that people can be so persecuted and so put to the test in many places of the world, in Nigeria, where there’s persecution. And I don’t have a chance to do so in person, but I would think the message is always there. Don’t waste that pain. Join it to the pain of Christ, which is continuing in his mystical body today. And then it becomes productive. It becomes redemptive and has a purpose. And I think whether it’s in a family situation, where there can be often great pain or in a hospital or on the world political scene, don’t waste it. Join it as a Christian to the cross of Christ, and it can then take meaning and redemption follows.

“I just wonder … in the Ukraine today and some places, how it can be that people can be so persecuted and so put to the test in many places of the world, in Nigeria, where there’s persecution.”

Robert Duncan: I’m thinking of people who may be watching that are perhaps interested in your life and your life story, but don’t have Christian faith. Maybe they’ve never had it or they’ve lost it because of things that have happened in their lives. And I wonder how would you make that message of taking on pain and not wasting pain applicable also to them?

Cardinal O’Brien: Well, I know we have many who have drifted from the Church and remain outside the body, but many, having drifted, get lost and realize the Church has something to offer. And I think the mercy of God as it shines through the teaching of the Church and through the sacraments of the Church is something we have a great message to deliver. And I think you hear of people going to confession for the first time in many years and what a relief it is to get back to the sacraments and back to the church. And a lot depends, obviously, on the messenger. And I think the messengers of the Church are not always the bishops and the religious. It’s fellow Catholics and fellow Christians who, by example, are encouraging others to come back, to be nourished by what the church has to offer. And, you know, we’ve been around a long time, and through thick and thin, I think today, from what I understand, there’s a great resurgence of faith on the part of young people, especially young men. And what I’ve heard is they say the church is always there. It’s stable. It’s reliable. It’s helpful. And with so many questions swirling around, it’s one of the sources that I can find meaning in in my life. And I think that’s happening today. I read an article recently in England, the same thing. And the same reasons are given. There’s a stability in the church that I cannot find elsewhere in my life. And I hope that that grows, and it’s a matter of God’s grace coming to work.

Robert Duncan: Pope Francis and Pope Leo have really been on a constant refrain of no more war. They’ve had very, very strong messages encouraging the conflicts around the world in Ukraine and the Middle East to cease. We may, in a short period of time, the United States be going to war with Iran. That’s in the news. There are many, many Americans serving in the places where there already are active conflicts. For the Catholics there, do you see there being a challenge of morale? How do Catholics take to heart the spiritual advice of the Pope and do their duty with honor?

Cardinal O’Brien: I recently heard from the wife of a Navy officer. Two kids, married six or seven years. He was due to come home this month. It’s the second time he’s been extended, another 30 days, another 60 days. And she’s at wit’s end, and he is too. So there’s great pressure on the military. You see the buildup now. Those men and women have been away from home for a long time, and it’s the families that are suffering as well. So I think there is a real question of morale, and I hope our civilian leadership is aware of the pressures we are putting on our military. And the military has shown great restraint, great strength in serving our country and obeying in their command. But there comes a limit, and I think the sensitivity of our national leadership has to be growing as to what we’re asking our military to do in overwhelming pressures. And I would hope not only are we praising our military, but we should be sensitive to their suffering as well.

Robert Duncan: You did not take place in the conclave that elected Pope Leo, although you did take place in the general congregations beforehand. And we now have a year of Pope Leo, more or less, under our belt, and I wonder what, given your life experience, your pastoral experience, how you see his priorities, where he’s going to take the Church. What are your hopes? Where do you hope he takes the church?

Cardinal O’Brien: Well, Leo keeps speaking about unity, and he’s a very disciplined man. He’s always got a script he’s reading from. He’s well-prepared. He’s well-received. His personality is perfect. He’s trusted, and I think he’s going to help the church through difficult days to be predictable. Sometimes, under Francis, we had some surprises we didn’t expect, but I think he’s a man faithful to the teaching of the Church, a man whose personality is well-suited for the role. He’s open to listen. He listens very carefully, evidently, to people who know him well and who have met him. He’s intently interested in what they have to say and responds accordingly. So I think his appointments will be interesting to various dioceses and to the dicasteries, but he comes well-prepared to lead the Church, and I think he’s shown that already by his balance, his receptivity.

“(Pope Leo) comes well-prepared to lead the Church, and I think he’s shown that already by his balance, his receptivity.”

Robert Duncan: Have you had any interaction with him?

Cardinal O’Brien: Very briefly, very briefly. I have no office I hold any longer, and I know he’s... I’m not knocking on his door every day, no.

Robert Duncan: I’d like to close by asking you, in your retirement, as you read the news, as you read Church news, what is it that Catholics are not talking about enough? What should we be talking about more that’s not getting enough attention?

Cardinal O’Brien: We need vocations, that’s for sure, and I know in New York, St. Joseph’s Seminary has three dioceses, New York and Brooklyn, Rockwell Center, and they don’t even have 100 seminarians, and so I think we have to highlight the role of priests and religious in serving the people. Some dioceses are doing that better than others, so that is one of the priorities I would think the new Archbishop of New York will find himself faced with. And just to be a listening Church and a supportive Church, especially those areas where the pressures are great, and I think every diocese has those areas, and certainly every area of the world. So the role of the Church is to be present and to serve, especially with the great sacramental gifts that Christ gives us.

Robert Duncan: Cardinal O’Brien, thank you for your time.

Cardinal O’Brien: Thank you for yours.