From Wall Street to the Sistine Chapel: John Studzinski on Faith, Finance, and Generosity

The veteran investment banker reflects on his rise in global finance and the spiritual vision behind a life of philanthropy.

John Studzinski has spent his life moving between two worlds sometimes seen as at odds: global finance and the Catholic Church.

In this conversation, we discuss:

• His childhood and rise in international investment banking

• How faith shaped his understanding of leadership, responsibility, and success

• The founding vision behind the Genesis Foundation and its focus on human dignity

• His collaboration with Vatican figures on projects in human rights, education, and the arts

• The story behind Angels Unawares, the sacred composition by Sir James MacMillan performed in the Sistine Chapel

• What it means to live with an awareness of the unseen — and how that informs a life of generosity

This isn’t just about philanthropy—it’s about what it looks like to take faith seriously in public life.

Transcript

Intro: John Studzinski is one of the world’s leading investment bankers and a philanthropist whose work, often in collaboration with Vatican officials, has supported initiatives in human rights, charitable outreach, and the arts. Born to Polish Catholic parents in the United States, he now divides his time between New York and London, where he remains an active presence in global finance. A trusted advisor and longtime friend to popes and cardinals, Studzinski recently marked his 70th birthday in Rome with a notable gesture: through his Genesis Foundation, he commissioned a new work of sacred music by Sir James MacMillan, Angels Unawares, performed in the Sistine Chapel and scheduled for broadcast on the BBC. In this conversation with Catholic News Service, we explore his early desire to serve those in need, his rise on Wall Street, and the deeper philosophy that underpins his philanthropy. As the title of his recent concert suggests, Studzinski’s vision is shaped by an awareness of the unseen—the angels, and the forces of light and darkness, that accompany human life. It is a vision that calls each of us to generosity, echoing the reminder of Scripture: we do not know when we may be entertaining angels unawares.

Robert Duncan: John Studzinski, thank you for sitting down with Catholic News Service.

John Studzinski: Great to be here. Thank you.

Robert Duncan: I want to start with what may sound like a difficult question and a challenge, but I think it’s something probably you’ve thought about a lot over your life and probably have a very interesting perspective on. So in the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus says that it is harder for a camel to enter into the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. As a very successful person in finance, what does that mean to you? And how has that warning, challenge, statement of Jesus affected your spiritual life?

John Studzinski: Well, I’m a long-time student and fan of the parables. And that, of course, is a powerful parable. And, of course, when you go to that part of Jerusalem, you understand what it means. The needle is not a needle, but it is, in fact, a challenging place through which a camel would go. Like all the parables, they’re not meant to be absolute. They’re teaching exercises. And I think in the context of that, not dissimilar from the rich man who ignores Lazarus and wants his siblings to be referenced. And the reference from above is, if they don’t pay attention to the Scriptures through Moses and Elijah and others, then they’re wasting their time. I’ve always looked at the Scriptures and that particular parable through the words of, to those who’ve been given much, or to whom much has been given, much is expected. And to those who’ve been given more, even more is expected. So I’ve always felt that there was a bit of a cross to carry early on. Now, the good news is, I grew up in a working-class, blue-collar, Polish Catholic family. And the first thing I did when I was six years old, when I noticed we had a community of Polish women who were very good at cooking and had a great sense of community, and there was a tribe there, I said to my mother when we kept seeing all these people in the streets of Boston, why don’t we have all these people, why don’t we, on Saturday nights, invite all these homeless people for supper?

Robert Duncan: This was your idea?

John Studzinski: At the age of six, because I was— my mother, of course, she knew there was something up, because the previous year, when I started nursery school, I came home and I said, I was so enthusiastic, because it was May Day and we were celebrating the Virgin Mary, and I came in and said, great group of people, we had a great celebration, and my mother said, how many? She said, I said, 22. And she said, well, at some point, I’ll look forward to meeting them. And I said, well, actually, you will meet them, because I’ve invited them all to supper next Monday night. And she then knew that this child was not exactly going to be very straightforward about being a passive child in terms of certain types of work. And so I became very, very focused on— because my mother taught me early on, you should be prepared to give the shirt off your back. So I grew up in this mindset that despite the fact that we were, for the most part, working class and didn’t have very much money, it was necessary and it was an obligation. And it wasn’t just because of faith and Christianity. It was just part of respecting human dignity. And then, of course, later on, you associate human dignity with the face of Christ.

Robert Duncan: Do you have any idea where that came from? I mean, I sometimes wondered why I, more than some of my peers, had questions in Sunday school growing up about theological matters when we were all receiving the same instruction. Do you have a sense of why at that young age…?

John Studzinski: I think, you know, this is—and, of course, we’re getting into lots of debates today about what comes from above. And, you know, I think that even at a young age, the Holy Spirit is active and one has divine and creative inspiration. And I had a very strong feeling. I was conscious of the fact that I was born on St. Joseph’s Day, March 19th.

Robert Duncan: Happy early birthday.

John Studzinski: Thank you. And I was conscious of the fact that I was a child that was not expected. In other words, my mother had already had a child and was told she would have no more children. But being very devout, she prayed. And I was also conscious of the fact, having studied my catechism probably prematurely, that I arrived in a blizzard and my mother had to walk several miles. And then I was born almost immediately. And then it was—so fairly dramatic people arrive in dramatic circumstances. So from that point, I was—my mother always felt that— so St. Joseph was my patron, that he would always watch out for me. And he has. He’s been very close to me. And so I’ve always been very conscious of that identity and, if you will, that role model.

Robert Duncan: I would like to focus on the reason why you’re in Rome. But maybe for listeners who don’t know who you are, how did you, in sort of a 30,000-foot view, get from this young boy who had an inclination to invite the homeless over for dinner to the success you had in business and finance and the beginnings of your philanthropic work?

John Studzinski: Well, I’ve been on Wall Street for 45 years. In university, I studied biochemistry and sociology. I was expecting, and I went for a short period of time to medical school. But I felt that most of the people in medical school were more interested in saving themselves than saving society. So I left and went to business school and law school. And then I was rather serendipitously hired by Morgan Stanley. I stayed in Morgan Stanley. And I remember they actually recruited me in those wonderful interviews where someone says, why do you want to be an investment banker on Wall Street? I said, well, you invited me. I did not ask to be here. So tell me why I should be an investment banker.

Robert Duncan: I read that you were one of the first Catholics at Morgan Stanley.

John Studzinski: You’ve got good research. That’s true. And I remember walking in, and I also remember that I worked. I was very disciplined. I’ve always been focused on time management because I think time is the most precious gift from God. So you can never, ever abuse time.

And I would always go to 7 o’clock Mass at St. Patrick’s Cathedral. And now I’m on the board of St. Patrick’s Cathedral. So that was quite auspicious that I would continue to stay involved but in a broader capacity. So I was. But I decided to become an investment banker because I thought it was about advising people. And it was about giving trusted advice to people. And I like people. And it was about allocating advice, allocating resources. Of course, investment banking is at the crossroads of capital. You stand between the sources of capital and the uses of capital. So you become, whether you’re an investment banker or an asset manager or an investor, you play a pivotal role in society. So I thought this was a very interesting place to be because I met a gamut of people. But I always made sure that I devoted enough time to my faith and I devoted enough time to other things like arts and culture and certain types of community work, which meant, of course, that you could fill 15 to 18 hours a day with a whole range of things. But I’m still on Wall Street. I love Wall Street because I’ve met and — I’ve lived in London now for the last 40 years — I’ve met an extraordinary group of people. And the more people you meet, the more you realize there’s just such a beautiful, rich universe of people.

And people are interested in you for so many reasons. I think people know the story of, I was at Morgan Stanley for 23 years. Then I was briefly at HSBC for four years running the wholesale bank. Then I was recruited by Blackstone and I was there for 15 years. And one day when I was at Blackstone, my assistant comes in, Wendy, who’s still working with me, and she says, the office of Mr. Lee Kuan Yew would like to come and call on you when he’s in New York next month. And I said, that sounds very interesting, but I’m not the head of Blackstone. That’s Steve Schwartzman. I think he should see Mr. Schwartzman. He doesn’t need to see me. He’s president of Singapore. She comes back, and this story has a purpose. She comes back and says, he wants to see you. So he comes on his own and he said, I’ve read a lot about you and your relationship on Wall Street, but your whole focus on prayer and meditation and how you use prayer and meditation to think and to relax and to work with people. And can you give me a brief tutorial on that? He wasn’t there to talk about business. He wanted to understand how I related my faith to my business. And he is a Buddhist. So I thought that was fascinating. And what I’ve discovered in my 45 years is, people want to do business with you often for the reasons that have principally nothing to do with business, but to do with your personality, your faith. Perhaps you’re interested in charity or something else. So people want to see the holistic side of you. And many of my clients that I worked with in the last 40 years still are fascinated by wanting to better understand God.

Robert Duncan: It’s not the classic picture of Wall Street that you get from cinema and popular culture. Are you an exception to the rule or is the image mistaken?

John Studzinski: You’re talking about Wall Street and show me the money. Right. Money talks, bullshit walks. That’s right. There’s a gamut of people on Wall Street. But remember, it’s like anything else. Wall Street is a cross-section of the human condition. There are lots of people who are very focused on power and money, people who are focused on success, people who are sharp-elbowed. And I’ve always believed, and often when I’m, and I lecture on a number of private equity and governance classes at different schools in America, and I often go to Teresa of Avila. When I really think I’m dealing with a very tough crowd, I say, you know, Teresa of Avila really understands people like you. And they say, what do you mean? And then I have to explain that she was a Spanish mystic, 16th century. I say, one of her more profound expressions, and I don’t know if you know this expression, but you’re welcome to use it. The devil enters your soul through your ego. And I’ve used that so much. And when you actually use it with someone who is very narcissistic or egocentrical or power-driven, people realize when you say it that perhaps your ego is your own downfall.

Robert Duncan: I was listening to a podcast of you talking about when you wake up quite early, and you mentioned the fact that you don’t wake up at three o’clock, even though you know that some people believe that waking up at three is the best time to pray, to combat dark spiritual forces. And you’ve just mentioned the devil. Because of your domain of work and money and finance, do you feel maybe particularly sensitively the battle between light and darkness in this world?

John Studzinski: It’s very real. And I’m witnessing a couple of situations right now in the world where there are some very dark characters who know they’re dark and are conscious of playing a role they’re playing. And I’m focused on prayer, and I’m focusing on prayer around those people. So I am focused on that. And God has given me many gifts, but the Holy Spirit often guides me when I hear people or see people and spend enough time with people where I sense a dark agenda. There’s no question that the devil and the supernatural is very rife at the moment. You can see it across the world, given a lot of the things that are happening.

Robert Duncan: I want to come back to that because it seems to me part of the theme of the concert, that of angels being all around us, and that would include demons and dark forces. But before we get there, I want to get to the beginning of Genesis Foundation and also, I think, for people for whom this is their introduction to you.

John Studzinski: The Genesis of Genesis.

Robert Duncan: The Genesis of Genesis, but also the car crash, which is such an important part of your life. So I’m not sure if the car crash and the foundation were causally related, but the car crash came first. Is that right?

John Studzinski: The — Genesis — this is interesting. You’re the first person that asked me to link the two. The car crash took place when I was in May of 1987. Genesis was founded in 2001, so it’s a lag of about 10 years. There was a lot of work going on that probably sowed the seeds of Genesis, but the car crash was very much driven by I was doing my day job, and I was on the autobahn in a Mercedes with my seat belt on in the back seat, and there was a group of cars around. It was 4 o’clock in the afternoon, 4.15 in the afternoon, and there had just been a very heavy downpour, thunderstorm. And the German word is aquaplana, which is water planing or hydroplaning, and there was so much water that accumulated on the autobahn very quickly that a number of cars lost control, and there were several cars that were going far too fast. Of course, if you’ve ever been on the autobahn, it’s a very well-made road. It’s some of the best spent money of the European Union, but this was a good example of when going too fast. And there was a nine-car crash, no survivors. I was the only survivor.

So my driver, who I developed a really good rapport with, it was very shocking because he went through the windshield, and he died. And then I had a very strong experience after that. It was that day, but then I think probably what you’re referring to is I was in intensive care, and I actually found that fascinating, being in intensive care with having lost a lung. And then it was very interesting because I was taken to the Hertz Institute. They did all the x-rays, and the doctor came back and said, well, we’ve got to take out your lung, one of your lungs. Your other lung is very full of fluid. We don’t know. We’ll have to put you on a life support system. And you’ve broken all your ribs in three places, and your left arm is broken in 63 pieces. So we’ll have to have two separate surgeries. And I didn’t have my parents with me, or I didn’t have any friends with me. I was on my own. So I looked at them, and I said, well, I said, here’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to do both operations at once, even if it’s 14, 18 hours. We’re going to pray, and I’ll sign a piece of paper right now that basically just says that if I die, it’s my decision. There’s no negligence. And this is one of these things in life where you must give it to God. And I survived the operation. My mother arrived the following day and told me I was out of my mind for being- and I looked at her and I said, you know, you’ve got to give it to God. This was God. God had to decide, do I live or die? And I lived.

John Studzinski: So eight days later, I’m still on this life support system. The doctor walks in, and he was a fairly- he was the orthopedic surgeon for the German Olympic Committee, and he was quite a sort of- what you’d say is a sort of tough, male, macho type. And he walked in, and he had a medicine ball with him, and he threw the medicine ball right in my face and said, everyone here has noticed, and I’ve noticed, that you pray, and you’re clearly very devout. And he’d also noticed that Basil Hume, Cardinal Hume, had come from London to see me, and actually to give me last rites in case I passed away. And he said, I’m going to give you this medicine ball. I want you to try to inflate it, and I have a feeling you will inflate it, because I want you to pray and inflate that ball. It’ll take you about an hour, if you can inflate it. And he said, and if you don’t inflate it, you’ll be on the life support system the rest of your life. And I said, okay. And I decided it was a- this was before John Paul II created the Luminous Mysteries, and I think it was- I don’t know what day of the week it was, but I decided the Glorious Mysteries I would pray. So I just prayed the rosary. I just said, okay, it’s time for the rosary, and I inflated my lung after about 40 minutes. And when you have that experience, it just reconfirms you have a purpose in life. We all have a purpose in life, and this is one of the things I’ve learned with the Genesis Foundation, but also my recent book called A Talent for Giving, which is everyone has talent that God has given them. It doesn’t come from them. It comes from God, but it’s up to them to find the right tools to nurture that talent. And I decided, okay, it’s time to put some more of my talents to use for the broader good.

Robert Duncan: So am I right in thinking that the Genesis Foundation has a particular focus on the arts?

John Studzinski: The Genesis Foundation is focused on giving artists, creatives, their first break or their first commission, their first opportunity to learn how to write a play, how to write a piece of music. Sir James McMillan, who has been a partner to the Genesis Foundation and to me for 20-plus years, he’s now a very good friend, he’s been one of our first people that we’ve supported. Because think back in your own life when you started your media career. There were probably two or three people who gave you your first internship, your first job, your first opportunity. And what I’m really interested in is one of my dear friends is an actress in the UK, Janet Sussman, and we were talking one day, we’d gone to see a Chekhov play, and we were talking one day about the Cherry Orchard and some of the people in the Cherry Orchard and some of the characters. And she said something which really struck me. She said, you know, it’s very important, the arts are such an important but fragile area. We can’t just have people in this economic environment coming from the upper middle class. If you really want the arts to be a rich place, they have to come from all levels of society. And I thought at that point, let’s create a foundation that creates commissions for people, particularly people, because if you’re from an upper middle class family, you probably know people who are in the arts. You probably have a network. You probably have financial resources. You probably can do a job and not necessarily need to be paid. But that’s also not the real world. The real world has to do a job and also doesn’t always have the social confidence or the self-confidence to get engaged. So ironically, the first thing we commissioned was a piece of sacred music. I was having a real taffy pull, an argument with Basil Hume about giving him a party for his 75th birthday because he was a Benedictine, he was very austere, focused on the poor, but focused on Benedictine values and lifestyle. So I said, okay, how am I going to get him to let us give him a party? So I thought, then I had met, somewhat serendipitously, an emerging young composer, Roxanna Panufnik, whose father was Andrzej Panufnik, the Polish composer. She had just converted to become a Catholic. And I then thought, hmm, when’s the last time Westminster Cathedral in London had a mass commissioned for Westminster Cathedral? And then I looked back and it wasn’t until Ralph Vaughan Williams had written something almost 100 years ago. So I thought, okay, I talked to Roxanna, said, could we commission you to write a Westminster Mass? And I used that as a tactic to get Basil Hume to give, you know, we’d have the debut, we’d have a mass, and we’d use it also as his gift. And he taught me something really important. He said, I will agree to this mass, to this piece of music to be commissioned in my name if you score it not just for orchestra, but you also score it for simple church organ, so that people can play it around the UK. And I learned a lot at that point, because he was taking my vision of Genesis and looking at on the user side and saying, okay, we can’t have these grand spiritual orchestral things that no one’s going to have access to in terms of putting them on, it’s too expensive. And that was a good leveler for me. So we did. And that was the first pilot of the Genesis Foundation where we had a new composer, a commission, profile, PR, newly converted Catholic, Basil Hume celebrating his 75th birthday, and the celebration. So, and that became the basis for if Genesis can do things that help people, but also have a broader impact, I mean, the way what we’re doing this Sunday has a much broader impact and does many more things. Proper commissions should have multiple purposes.

Robert Duncan: So I just want to get a sense of your vision, philanthropic vision. So do you see sort of different domains when giving to the poor or the homeless and the arts, or do you see a kind of unity between both of these domains?

John Studzinski: It’s important, if we’re going to get on as friends long term, that you not think about the world in terms of a bunch of collection boxes. The world is not a bunch of collection boxes. You have to start with values. And my principal focus is protecting, respecting, and in many cases, nurturing human dignity.

So whether I’m working with the homeless in the night shelter, I was involved in starting the passage with Basil Hume in Westminster, or whether I’m involved in helping a young artist with their first commission, that’s also an element of helping their dignity. Or whether we work with, you talked about Michael Czerny. Michael Czerny, Cardinal Czerny, 10 years ago, asked me to get involved with Talitha Kum here in London per Pope Francis because he says they need someone to work with them like you who can really focus more systematically on modern slavery and human trafficking. And I’ve subsequently set up another foundation, Arise, which deals with that. So that also deals with human dignity. And at one point I was chair of Human Rights Watch. Again, human rights, human dignity. So everything comes down to human dignity. And that, for me, is very, very close to my faith because man was only given his or her dignity by virtue of God sending his son to the earth and Jesus Christ being God and man. And the God part of Christ is what basically gives man his or her dignity. And that is something we all must pay attention to. I think people forget, particularly in this day and age, and we’re seeing this a lot now with adolescents, we’ve done a fabulous, powerful, compelling new opera which I’ll ask Cecile to send you the link, and maybe you could actually, it might be something you put on, it’s called Angels on the Underground, which deals with a homeless man who encounters three angels, all of whom are different types of angels, and he’s contemplating, he’s going through depression, and he’s contemplating suicide on the underground. It’s about a 35-minute video. It’s very powerful. But again, it deals with the issue of mental illness, which is one of the bigger problems we have. It’s probably always been a big problem, but we’re just very conscious of it today in the Jonathan Haidt version of the age of anxiety.

Robert Duncan: Your fascination with angels. I mean, Catholics, of course, pray to angels. It says that in our catechism. In theory, we do that. But most often I hear people either praying to God, to Jesus, to Mary, the saints, but it seems somewhat more rare to me to have someone who is focused on the supernatural realm and the angels specifically as part of — you know, guardian angels, of course, we know this. But where did your fascination for that layer of the supernatural come from?

John Studzinski: Well, first of all, angels aren’t just in Catholic or Christian scriptures. You can find angels in Greek and Roman literature, poetry, and you also find angels among other faiths as well.

Robert Duncan: What do you think they are?

John Studzinski: Well, let’s be clear. First of all, I don’t want to unpack some of the things you said earlier, but you don’t pray to saints. You don’t pray to angels. You pray to God. You ask for the intercession of a saint. You ask for the guidance. And remember, all angels refer directly. All angels get their power and their reference. And whether they’re a messenger, a mentor... Or a warrior, they all get their guidance and their instructions from the Holy Spirit. That is absolutely true. And I’ve got a very close relationship with my guardian angel, and I think everybody should spend more time either in meditation or prayer. Because I think there’s a... And I’m not saying this to make you laugh or to make people laugh, but I think a lot of guardian angels are quite disappointed because it’s a bit like a great resource that many people don’t use.

I mean, the most powerful time to use a guardian angel and to rely on a guardian angel is the point of the offertory in the Mass when you want to offer your gifts to God. And whether it’s your thanking God or glorifying God or giving some other gift to God, you’re bringing your gifts to God, but you’re asking your guardian angel to present your gifts on the altar. And when I think of the number of guardian angels that are standing in the back of the church that don’t have any gifts to present because no one had asked them to present them, you’re smiling at me. I’m not trying to be funny. I’m dead serious.

Robert Duncan: Did the prayer to the guardian angel, is that something that was encouraged in your nightly prayer as a child? When you were young? Or did the awareness of the angelic realm, let’s say, grow as you grew?

John Studzinski: Guardian angels, I’ve always been conscious of mystical things in my life. So I always felt the presence of things. I mean, I’ve had examples of things. The car accident we talked about where I had access to a mobile phone. These two, they were allegedly American soldiers who I thought appeared, gave me a, at the time, this is the time when there was like the walkie-talkie large Nokia mobile phones that looked like the size of a club, gave me one of those. And then I turned to thank them and they were gone. The mobile phone existed. And then they went, because finally when we had to go to court and testify about the accident, because I was the only one who was there, I had a mystical experience. After these two characters left, I was able to look down and see the entire arrangement of all the nine cars. So we were, when we went to court, I was very clear. I sort of drew, I went to a chalkboard, well, it was a big whiteboard, and I drew for the entire court because it was basically a group of insurance companies that were all suing each other for who was liable for the accident. And I said, and I was very clear on where all nine cars were. The judge said, given you were sitting in the car, it would have been physically impossible for you to know what you drew. And I said, well, what I drew, I drew. So I had that experience. I also had the experience that the mobile phone, they were trying to trace as witnesses these two soldiers. The mobile phone was certified to two people who didn’t exist. So I’ve also had many other experiences. The guardian angel does, if you give the guardian angel time, you do have insights that guardian angels share with you.

Robert Duncan: I think it’s important to talk about your view of the angelic realm because of the reason you’re here now is that this concert is named after. Would you talk a bit about that?

John Studzinski: This is a world premiere in the Sistine Chapel of a new piece of music called Angels Unawares. It’s dealing with angels in the Old Testament and the New Testament, angels as mentors, messengers, motivators, guardians, and warriors, and people who love us. It focuses on 12 sequences, six from the Old Testament, six from the New Testament. And actually, they’re fabulous sequences. I mean, you start, of course, with some of the early references to angels in the Old Testament. And then, of course, you end with the great John Book of Revelation as the 12th tableau, which is very, very powerful and, of course, one of the most mystical things ever written in so many different ways of interpreting it. It’s written by Sir James MacMillan, who is Catholic, Scottish, and he’s written a number of other things with us before. We also commissioned him to write what I think is one of the most powerful, dramatic Stabat Mater. And the reason I asked him to do the Stabat Mater is I was sick and tired of hearing the Rossini Stabat Mater, which I thought was like a chocolate box. Stabat Mater is a serious subject. It doesn’t belong in a chocolate box. And even the Pergolesi, which everyone hears, is a little too romantic. The Stabat Mater is a serious subject. It’s standing at the foot of the cross as Christ dies.

“The Stabat Mater is a serious subject. It’s standing at the foot of the cross as Christ dies. This is about the most dramatic moment in man’s history.”

This is about the most dramatic moment in man’s history. And I just felt it was time to have a piece of music that reflected the reality of that, and not just sugarcoating it. He wrote a very powerful piece. And I remember when I was talking to James about it, we were in a panel discussion with the BBC when it debuted, and the BBC interviewer said to James, so how do you channel the divine when you’re writing a piece of sacred music? And he says, it’s really hard to do that. I don’t always do that. James is a great composer. He’s very humble. And I rolled my eyes, and she looked at me, and she said, John, you’re rolling your eyes. Why are you so... And I said, let’s just get one thing straight here. You don’t decide you’re going to channel the divine. The divine decides who the divine is going to use as their vehicles. And James has been chosen to channel the divine, and his writing reflects it. It’s the whole notion of wisdom cannot be discovered. Wisdom is revealed. Wisdom and creativity are revealed by God. And that’s very clear. This commission, it’s 70 minutes. It comes from the scripture, Hebrews 13, of how we encounter angels often in our daily lives in different circumstances, and we’re perhaps unaware that angels...

And that’s why I always liked the notion that many of us have encountered angels for different reasons. Certainly I have. You have, whether you want to acknowledge it or not. And many people have. I’ve had people sit down next to me at a dinner party, and they sort of look at me and think, oh, I’m sitting next to this serious Catholic. And they say, so I understand you believe in God. And I say, well, yes.

Robert Duncan: At English dinner parties.

John Studzinski: At English dinner parties. I said, I do believe in God. I said, well, tell me something. When’s the last time you were in the presence of God? And they say, what do you mean? And I said, all of us have moments in our lives when God, the presence of God, is profound. And actually, you know, it’s an interesting exercise because people, I would say in 8 out of 10 cases, people start thinking carefully and inevitably find moments. And these are people who are often agnostic or atheist, find moments when they have had an experience or something that they’ve always wanted to talk about but were afraid of it or didn’t really know how to unpack it. So this commission, it’s a piece of sacred music. And James has written it to be accessible, which means even though it’s going to be written for an orchestra, two vocalists with a big emphasis on which two instruments would you associate with angels. Obviously the harp, but also the trumpet. So we’ll hear both instruments. But also, in looking back at the history of music in the last 2,000 years, sacred music, there have not been any major pieces of, there’s Tobias and the Angel in the opera world, but there have not been any major pieces of music dedicated to the holy angels. Because I feel as though people all have angels in their lives. Most people don’t recognize it. And the angels play a very constructive role at helping people provide almost a bigger foundation and a framework for their faith.

Robert Duncan: We don’t have that much time left, but I feel like we’ve only just built a foundation for which I could ask you a lot of the questions I’m really interested in. But I think it would be helpful to maybe use these last minutes to talk about some practical things you’ve learned through your charitable giving. I mean, one thing that occurs to me that might be a question would be, well, if I had more money, it would be easy to give and to be charitable. But my budget is tight. So is that true? Have you found it easy? Has it been hard still to…?

John Studzinski: No, no, no. That is the wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. That is not what you want to be talking about. I’m trying to turn. You’ve got to think about philanthropy from two different ways. There’s enormous wealth in the world right now. The top 1% is just continuing to do brilliantly in this K-shaped economy. That’s great. They will continue to build buildings, museums, universities. Many of them will create the next artificial intelligence universe and all of that. Real philanthropy, I think, stems from people rethinking their lifestyle. And that’s the whole origin of my book, A Talent For Giving. I’m very interested in everyone.

Look at your own time, for example. You have treasure. You just told me you don’t have a lot of treasure. Fine.

Robert Duncan: I was speaking for everybody.

John Studzinski: Well, everyone listening, park your treasure. But you have time. You have talent. Young people are exceptionally good at ties and convening. They’re very good at technology. I’ve just written a new chapter on what I call tone for the paperback that’s coming out in the fall, which has to do with following up on that Maya Angelou quote about it’s not what you give, it’s not what you tell somebody, but it’s how you make them feel. And so much about giving and how you work with people that you’re giving things to. And one of the biggest elements of giving today is something which people overlook too much now, and that’s the power of two, which is mentoring. And I actually believe that real philanthropy is about partnership, long-term, about helping people, teaching people to fish, not giving them a fish. Giving people a fish is a transaction. It’s great. A lot of people need fish. They need to live. They need a place to sleep. They need clothes. They need health care. That’s part, that’s charity, and that’s important. Catholic charities, I do a lot with Catholic charities in New York City, Al Smith dinner every year, St. Patrick’s, all that. But there’s also teaching people to fish because it has that other element of enhancing their self-esteem and their dignity. And remember, philanthropy has to be about this notion: You have what you gave, you had what you spent, and you lost what you kept.

And everything you give in your life, whether it’s even time, that’s something you carry with you as part of your human balance sheet for God, and I do believe that. So I think I’m trying to encourage people to rethink giving. Money is there. Money is important. Money is a tool, but it should not be the first step. It should be talent, time, and other things that you have in your universe.

Robert Duncan: I had just one more question before we close, and that’s there has been with the last two popes in particular — although of course you can make a case that it’s very much in the papal teaching tradition — with Pope Francis and Pope Leo now of a focus on the poor and a focus on the people on the margins. And I know from reading about you that you have had friendships with these popes. How are they challenging people in general, and how do you feel challenged or invigorated perhaps by this new emphasis or this particular emphasis that they put on charity and people on the margins?

John Studzinski: Well, first of all, it’s nothing new. When we founded the passage, I had hammered into my head by these very formidable sisters. Whenever I was trying to sort of feed the poor and rehabilitate them, they would remind me that, you know, and there is an interesting model. Homeless people up until the age of 40, many of them, unless they have a mental illness problem, and the data is different, but let’s say 15, 20% of the people have a mental illness problem. The rest can be given some type of work training, something about life skills, something to get them back on their feet. So I do believe the poor will always be with us, though, and there’s a role to play at taking care of them, but I also believe that you can’t patronize them. You have to find their human anchor, and once you find the human anchor, many of them are thrilled, but remember that wonderful line, which I use all the time, because when I worked with, you didn’t ask me about my time with Mother Teresa, that in itself would be another hour, and those stories are much funnier, but she would always say, don’t give me all this metrics, don’t give me all this money, let’s just focus on one person at a time, and it’s just like the Matthew scripture. Worry about today, tomorrow will take care of itself, and she would say, let’s focus on one person. You can only change the world one person at a time.

“Mother Teresa … would always say, don’t give me all this metrics, don’t give me all this money, let’s just focus on one person at a time.”

So I think it’s important, and we can’t ignore it, and I think charity is important, but I think you have to look at charity, and I’m actually going to raise this with our current Holy Father, that remember charity is very important, but charity shouldn’t be about just giving someone a fish, it should be about teaching them fish, because that’s where you really empower them.

Robert Duncan: On that note, thank you very much for sitting down with Catholic News Service, and again, happy birthday.

John Studzinski: Thank you.